Piano roll/MIDI sequencer

i thought this when i first came across mulch about 5 years ago....BUT

...it just doesnt seem...right. BUT BUT BBBBB B BUT... i rekon if it was just a simple lil piano roll with intelligent CC editing n all the bits n pieces, it woulsd be friggin kickass!
BUT (here come the buts again) ...BUT BBBB BUT...i would hate to see Mulch heading down the tired old dark n dusty road of becoming like DAW "abc123", whatever one u care to mention....cos Mulch's best asset is that its a one of a kind (atleast to my knowledge) and it works as it is....B BUT BBB BUT BUT we shouldnt let that get in the way of progress and getting the best possible results from within the host without having to resort to VSfa**_>rkinT'.s

( i have yet to buy a V2 license, BUT...im very protective and in love of some kind with this program,[have been registered for atleast 5/6 years] and i would hate to see my petite little baby grow into a big fat silcon hoe... and being a fellow Antipodeon to Ross and "MulchieMulch" i feel a deep simbiosis with all issues concerned....thus im a bit protective of ideas pushing us into Poobase BootyPoops etc territory.....i approach AudioMulch as a kinetic,spontaneous,wildly expressive,live performance,brainstorming idea machine and instrument, and all the po-faced frowning and serious editing and tweaking i think should be left to other programs that can tackle the task properly. Rewire is a beautiful thing.)

any thoughts?

peace

edit: 5/6 years is a bit of a stretch..more like 3/4. poetic license,what can i say?:)

Well I'm new to Audiomulch so I'm at the 5/6 years ago stage you were at maybe...but...I mean its crying out for it. It doe not mean it becomes a DAW and makes poop music, no. Just want to fire a chord from Absynth on bar 25 of my piece.....

Sure I can do this with- guess what--my DAW! So actually facilitating this would mean less DAW for me.

I can't seem to find a vst that will do this either. Getting a midi recorder is one thing but getting it to publish it's play/stop parameter to vst is anoth and I'm mac!

So I would LOVE audiomulch to have a simple midi recorder that could record notes- it doesn't even have to be editable as long as it can relate to the timeline.

i been thinking about this alot more, esp after looking at the Usine example...and ive come around. Your right, i would support any outcome that would give us all flexibility in this regard.
(i must of been trashed when i wrote that last post. I mean, that dude sounds insane!) :)

peace

I've looked long for something that is vst, mac and has that all important play/stop parameter- does not exist afaikt. I thought reaktor would do it but -same problem of stopping/starting the clock.

any osx users, give five12 numerology a try! I have been using it with audiomulch and it works just fine. with the midi patching you can do now, there's all kinds of ways you can sequence stuff in mulch via numerology...

I've been using Energy XT has a piano roll solution. It does the job but I would like to see a piano roll vst or something. Hopefully someone will code one in the future.

http://azertopia.free.fr/PolyGrid.html

It just came out yesterday. That's funny cuz I was yapping about wanting a vst one and there I go. :)

I tried sending an e-mail to thank him but there's no e-mail.

Cool! thanks

Polygrid is great for my purposes, thanks very much.

I also posted in the PC plugins thread for free MIDI sequencers...

Does that PolyGrig VST work well in AudioMulch? having much luck with it? Could be pretty useful for me...

I managed to find a vst tracker if anybody is interested:
http://www.nashnet.co.uk/english/revisit/
not sure how well it works in audiomulch, as it's for windows and I'm on a mac (so I can't use it), but I figured I'd post it here in case anybody wants to give it a go.

Just for the New Year I'll repeat earlier laments on the Mulch list on this subject: I've always thought the lack of a basic, native piano roll sequencer to be a serious drawback with Mulch. When I've discussed this in the past, the argument from other Mulchers against a native midi contraption was that Mulch wasn't that sort of DAW. Well sure, if you like, but the continuing existence of drum machine and bassline and arpeggiator contraptions kind of undermines that position.

I guessing it's a matter of practicality: back in the day Ross built step sequencer contraptions and they've stuck around because people use them; he hasn't built a piano roll midi editor in the past (for whatever reason); and now he has other priorities more pressing. I appreciate that. I've kept quiet and used energyXT for years within mulch to make notes. But look, running an app inside an app is a pain usability wise, esp when both use a modular interface... sometimes it's like staring at a screen filled with opened up Russian dolls.

And I have tried free VST sequencers, but they're pretty crude. And routing midi from another app is also inelegant and prone to sync problems.

In my frustration I've been moved to even try out Live after nearly 10 years (man and boy) of devoted Mulching. Live is quite encouraging because they make everything easy to do and everything sounds good.... it feels all wrong though. Too easy, perhaps.

Look, it doesn't have to be a complicated sequencer - just something that fires out MIDI note events. Automation on the VSTi can take care of the rest. The interface pretty much exists already with the other sequencer contraptions.

It's all I ask; I beggin ya! It doesn't have to happen now, just give us a ray of hope and say one day... One day...

Kind regards,

Stuart

Hi Stuart
Thanks for writing. I hear you. I'll try to lay out some of my thinking on this.

1) There are many great MIDI sequencing programs out there and I'm not trying to make another one.

2) In light of point (1), expectations around piano roll editor functionality are high -- this means that there is potentially a lot of work involved in delivering a good solution. You could argue that it is a needed feature, but see point (1).

That said, I was recently looking at Bidule and was surprised at how minimal their pianoroll is. Perhaps I could see something this simple in AM in the future. But:

3) The problem with adding new features in new directions is that it creates expectations and is another source of feature requests and "couldn't you just make it do this" type requests. In other words, it broadens the expectations of what the program does and should do. This in turn stretches resources that could maybe be better deployed in other areas.

4) I can think of other things that should have higher priority in AM than the piano roll. Many have been discussed in these forums (e.g. OSC support, grouping/subpatches, LFOs to name three that probably will happen eventually). At the most speculative end (in the sense that I can't see it happening soon) would be things like LISA-style live sampling -- that is something that I think would be useful and important to AM more so than a piano roll -- but maybe I'm out of touch.

In one sense I completely agree with you. But the likelihood of piano-roll in the short term remains low.

I would be really interested to hear what kind of music you're making and why you think AM is the best tool for making it, in spite of the lack of piano roll. I'd also like to hear from other people who are interested in piano roll -- and what extent it would need to take on to be usable (maybe some people might want something simple, others want something no less powerful than EnergyXT, Ableton or Cubase).

Thanks

Ross.

I would love:
1-Something simple so I could trigger my VSTs easily. I know the emphasis on AM is audio, but for me VSTs and samples are pretty seamless. I would love to trigger some cool polyrhythmic beats on my percussion VSTs in the same way that I can trigger samples.

2-I would love to see what kind of trippy algorhythmic midi generator you could come up with, maybe something like Noatikl but with the intuitive feel that AM has.

I understand there will probably never be rewire support, or an AM VST, which I am fine with, but I feel that I do not have access to a lot of the sounds that I love within AM. I know there are work arounds including renders to audio, but that is a lot more work than I want to do just to get a project up and running.

AM is an excellent purchase and I use it a lot, but some MIDI capabilites would really elevate how I use it.

I wouldn't mind a piano roll in the future but I'm much more interested in the features you mentioned like subpaches,lfos and lisa style live sampling(yes!). Right now I can use energy xt2 has a piano roll inside AM so it's good enough for me.

The way I want to use audiomulch is writing Techno-songs completely in mulch. A sequencer isn´t the tool that fits my skills (I have no overview, no detailed ideas without inspiration).
AUDIOMULCH is very musical.
You can built up your music with few contraptions and a few ideas in a nonlinear way and you can realize you ideas fast (it´s looping), so that you don´t loose your idea. The handycap is, that you can´t draw the note-pitch and the notelength fast- you can´t experiment with it.
Something like Fruity Loops doesn´t inspire me, cause you have no shaping structures like bassline, southpole,... together with sidechains and parallel chains, that have one source (signal generators), but different functions (drums/melody/accompaniments).
This releases a great creative potential and a sound- design possibility. Abstract ideas (1.arpeggiator+ bassline= result ;OR 2.noisegenerator+ southpole=result ;OR 1. + 2. = complex sound , OR 10harmonics+compressor triggered with drums=result) can get audible.
Last but not least, you are free in structure, for example put a bassline over a sidechain formed from drums- some beats are muted in this case.

This freedom must be in Audiomulch´s features, too. --> note lenght, note pitch, parameter change, though the contraption has a snapshot(drums!), midi control including contraption-syncronisation.
The PIANOROLL itself is fast (testing what pitch fits) and has no limits (length, notestartpoint, amount of notes).
Audiomulch itself can not top the bandwidth of VSTi instruments-sound, but Ross planed basic Midi output-contraptions, or not?
Until yet creating a melody-line wasn´t possible for me (note length), drum snapshots are hard to vary (changes are deleted, when any other flag is crossed)

I love to see the world of 3rd party- party´s plug-ins and choose the best for me, but I like to see more basic plug-ins for fundamental features. There are many 3rd parties, and hard to find.
I think the lack of some fundamentals lead to the use of prebuilded samples.

@whitelight: Thanks for the comments. You said "I like to see more basic plug-ins for fundamental features" I guess you mean more built in contraptions -- are there others aside from piano roll? Would you mind creating a post in the feature request forum and listing what you are thinking of for "fundamental features"?
Thanks.

Ok. I lay over it. I have no concret plan!!!!! But what I meant was "strategic contraptions/ideas".
Strategic contraptions: you can integrate the contraption in a way, that it interact with the existing structure.
Strategic ideas: Improvements of the existing contraptions, that interact or automate.
I will open this new forum topic in the next few weeks "strategic contraptions/ideas"-"feature requests";and today "3rd party solutions" -"PC plugins" for plug-ins that are so good, that you (Ross) can concentrate on other/different own contraptions.
Fundamental contraptions are for me contraptions, that cannot be made by 3rd parties, because their structure is imbedded in and is special to mulch.
I am concerned about the container!!! God has made with Audiomulch a characteristic program! And I am his child!

Whitelight: I think all that you speak of is actually addressed by the midiLooper made by Insert Piz Here http://thepiz.org/plugins/?p=midiLooper

It has the ability to record midi live and begin loop playback seemlessly. It can also change the scale /octave etc. of the midi loops whilst playing them back live.

Just to throw an idea out there. Instead of trying to do the piano roll thing, there are several native contraptions that are ripe for note output. Consider:

- bassline / arpeggiator sends out midi notes
- drum (w/ midi note assignment per sample part) sends out midi notes

Advantages:
- minimal changes to current ui, no revamp required
- encourages a limited, but different approach to composition that fits perfectly in the current contraption framework.

~revo11

With the ability to control which contraptions were MIDI send enabled and which were not (to maximise performance) this could be a good addition to the MIDI out coming in 2.2.

But I'm not sure on the details of the MIDI out planned and in beta for 2.2...

I would love to see some form of simple midi sequencer in AM.

I use AM for experimenting with audio and building up unique patches that end up forming the basis of tunes. for these occasions I nearly always exclusively use AM native contraptions.

I would also love to use it as an amazing, limitless mixing desk for live use of more 'structured' music, using more VST instruments. At the moment this is hindered by not having any kind of midi-out. I have tried using all the (free) sequencing vst plug ins but I have found they are either counter-intuitive to my workflow or they cause crashes.

As echoed above, a simple 'drum player'-esque contraption, with the possible inclusion of velocity (but not too bothered about that!) would totally do for me.

This is obviously coming very late, as it sounds like something is in the pipeline for 2.2 (woo-hoo!) but I thought I'd add another voice to the crowd

So far the best solution I've tried inside Audiomulch is Energy XT2. It actually works pretty good. I bought the original xt for $50 so the version 2 was free for me. Everything syncs perfectly and XT follows also AM's loop bracets in the automation lane. It is the best solution for sequencing in Audiomulch.

Just with the midi out of energy XT, you can send 16 different midi tracks to 16 differents VSTis inside Audiomulch. You just set each midi track to a different midi channel inside XT and just plug the midi out of XT to any VSTis. From there, in the parameter control section of each VSTi in Audiomulch, you set the receive channel accordingly. That's it.

The other solution is just to plug any midi sequencer and Audiomulch using a virtual midi cable. This has the advantage of controlling AM directly.

Edit: I just realized that my post was perhaps hijacking the piano-roll request thread, so I am starting a new thread for my idea called .. umm... Piano Roll Alternative - Single Note Trigger.

i agree with Rob

let the rollin' go elsewhere!

in my opinion other implimentations should be prioritised

Personally, i de love to see AM LFO that control any device parameter...
Device parameter randomiser (ie like API Tools Explorer in AL)
More detailed native reverb plug

Hi. What's this "API Tools Explorer" you speak of? I couldn't find it with google.

I believe its a reference to the bundled 'API DeviceExplorer' device (or one of its variants) in Max for Live.

I understand it would take a lot for this to happen, but it really would let me to continue using Mulch as my main DAW. I really do love it, but I need a piano roll to continue creating music.

I appreciate that you guys are so connected with your customers though.